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Paulo Coelho interview
copyright Victoria Mary Clarke,
2003
'Once upon a time there was a prostitute,'the writer
wrote. And then he stopped himself, abruptly. "A
prostitute? I can't begin a story about a prostitute
in a manner traditionally used for fairytales! Or can
I? Are we not all of us living half in a fairytale,
and half in the darkest abyss?" And having pondered
this question he decided that yes, all of our lives
we experience the dark, the painful and the evil side
as well as the light and joyous side of life. And so
he wrote a fairytale about a prostitute called Maria.
And it turned out to be an extremely good book, and
he was pleased with it. And his publishers were pleased,
too, because they knew that this book would sell millions
of copies, like his other books did, and that always
makes people happy.
The writer is called Paulo Coelho. He is most famous
as the author of 'The Alchemist" a simple fable
about an Andalusian shepherd boy who follows his dreams.
But Coelho is much more than a writer. He is a philosopher,
a mystic, a magus. Some people would go further and
say that he is a guru, a prophet, an angel. In fifty
six countries, people read his books, and he has sold
more than thirty million books. When he arrives at a
bookstore, to sign copies, thousands of people wait
to meet him, security guards must be employed, fans
besiege him as if he were David Beckham or Robbie Williams.
And he loves it. As a child, he idolised Marlon Brando
and James Dean and later on he became famous writing
lyrics for a Brazilian rock-star, and made millions.
The mantle of celebrity is one that he is entirely at
home with.
The millions of fans, the millions of dollars and the
minimalist hotel rooms have come with a price, however.
The fairy-tale that is the life of Paulo Coelho has
been written complete with a dark and evil twist that
is entirely worthy of the nastiest Harry Potter imaginable.
Born into a middle class Brazilian family, in 1947,
he was an artistic and poetic child, who studied under
the strictest of Jesuits and won competitions for essays
and poems. At the age of seventeen, he decided that
he wanted to work in the theatre, to the disappointment
of his parents who wanted him to study Law. Because
he was deemed un-cooperative they had him committed
three times to a mental hospital, where he was given
ECT. He escaped and ran away, but was never able to
survive alone and always returned to his parents, only
to be locked up again.
When he finally left home and married a girl with money,
who could afford to finance his creative endeavours,
he was captured again. At that time, Brazil was ruled
by a military dictatorship who did not tolerate young
men like Paulo, revolutionaries who read Marx and Engels
and expressed an interest in Che Guevara. Having teamed
up with a hippy rock-musician called Raul Seixas, Paulo
was arrested and tortured. An experience which also
involved electric shock treatment, only this time it
was his balls that were being fried. It was, he says,
a thousand times worse than the mental hospital. And
it caused him to lose his wife, as well as his freedom,
something which has left an indelible mark. To this
day, he will not say the name of that wife, because
she despises him so much for what she considered to
be his cowardly behaviour, while in prison. What actually
happened, he says, was that his wife who had also been
imprisoned, was being tortured in another room. And
when they were both escorted, blindfolded, to the bathroom,
she recognised him and called out to him. But he was
too frightened to respond.
Before Paulo Coelho could be transformed from hippy
revolutionary to mega-guru, a baptism of fire even more
extreme and far more dangerous had to take place. Having
already experimented with LSD, cocaine and almost every
other drug available, Paulo turned his attention to
the Occult. And joined a black magic cult. Black magic
and the attempt to become all- powerful frightened him
so much that he almost went completely insane. After
two years of intensive practice, he woke up one morning
to find a black cloud in his house, a thing which blocked
out most of the room and which terrified him so much
that he believed that he would die. Only when he picked
up a bible and renounced evil forever, did it go away.
And he was never again tempted by the dark side.
The journey to the light was equally dramatic. A pilgrimage
to Dachau, the former concentration camp resulted in
a realisation that he himself had a job to do in life.
The bells of the nearby chapel were tolling, he says,
for him. For him to wake up and do something about the
madness and the horror that humanity was undergoing.
And the realisation was followed by a vision, and a
voice. He will not say who he saw, but one suspects
that it was Jesus. The man who had appeared in the vision
turned up two months later and guided Paulo to rejoin
the Catholic Church, and in particular an ancient order
of Catholics called 'RAM". As a child, he says,
he was put off religion by the Jesuits, who eradicated
his faith with their dogma. But having found his faith
again, he clings to it tenaciously. It is, he says,
all he really has.
A couple of years ago, Paulo Coelho came to Ireland
at the invitation of film-makers Catherine O Flaherty
and Liam Mc Grath, who were making a documentary about
moving statues and visions of Mary that were reported
in Ireland at that time. In the documentary, Paulo stands
in Grafton Street, in the rain, watching a religious
fanatic with a megaphone who is denouncing the evils
of mankind. He watches impassively. Afterwards he asks
with genuine curiosity, if the man believes that statues
move and that Mary appears to people. As if he genuinely
wants to know.
'To accept faith, you have to be a little crazy,' he
explains. 'God has hidden His wisdom from wise men,
He reveals Himself to the crazy people." After
a journey around Ireland, which lasted seven days and
during which it rained every day, Paulo decided that
those who claimed to have seen the Blessed Virgin were
probably telling the truth.
One question that must be asked of anyone who has delved
so deeply into the mysteries of the human condition,
and of the spiritual realms is does it make you happy?
Is Paulo Coelho happy? I have been sent to meet the
great man, so that I can find this out for myself. And
I arrive, one afternoon, at an expensive hotel in Knightsbridge,
and I am welcomed to an air-conditioned suite, where
he has been patiently answering the same questions all
day, for a string of journalists. A gentle, unassuming
and unobtrusive chap, he offers me a seat and a drink.
In his trademark black, he reclines comfortably across
his chair, a priest-like character with brown eyes that
smile and yet reveal absolutely nothing of what is going
on behind them. No, is the answer. He is not happy nor
would he want to be.
"Thankfully, happiness is not the ultimate goal
for humankind."
Nobody is happy?
"I don't think anybody could be happy. Happiness
is a Sunday afternoon when you have nothing to do, you
have no challenges. But what is life about? Life is
about challenges. Life is about daring to cross your
own barriers, your own limits."
Being a poet himself, as a youth he idolised the Argentinian
writer Jorge Luis Borges. Who wasn't interested in happiness
either.
"I will not be happy now. It may not matter. There
are so many more things in the world," Borges wrote.
Paulo has read every one of Borges poems a thousand
times, he says and recites them from memory. He does
not long for happiness, but for joy.
"Joy is different from happiness. You can have
joy in love, but I don't think you can be happy in love."
Love is a very up and down thing, I agree.
"Fortunately! You are being constantly provoked
by the object of your desire and your life is much more
interesting. People who believe that the moment that
you marry, everything will remain the same forever,
they are lost."
Paulo has, himself been married four times now. His
whole life has been ruled by women, he says, including
his editor, his agent and his current wife, Cristina.
The most important thing that ever happened to him,
more significant than torture or the encounter with
evil was his first kiss, from a girl, when he was a
teenager.
'When you are young you think that you are ugly, you
have no money, no job, no car!' he says. 'That kiss
changed my life, because it meant so much to me."
The girl surprised him, as all of the women in his life
would do, with her love and generosity. She saved all
her birthday money so that he could study theatre. And
later on, he disappointed her by refusing to return
the favour. All of the women were kinder to him than
he was to them, he says. But they showed him that he
has a feminine side, which he now embraces, and many
of the protagonists in his books are women, all of whom,
he says, are him in disguise. Maria, the heroine of
his latest book, is based on a real prostitute, but
the way in which he writes about her, in particular
about her sexuality, suggests an understanding of the
female that is extraordinarily, almost scarily perceptive.
He has explored the nature of prostitution in depth,
in the book, and he admits that as a teenager, he also
used their services, even if he was scared to death
by the experience. Why do men go to prostitutes?
"I don't know, but neither do they. I don't want
to judge prostitutes or their clients. The prostitutes
say that the men feel lonely. I don't really believe
that. But I don't believe it is all about sex, either.
Men are looking for love. The major theme of this book
is how to put soul and body together."
Maria is desperately lonely. Loneliness, he says, is
the very worst kind of human suffering.
"When you are lonely, every single moment seems
like an eternity. It is then that you realise that you
are not in this world to be alone. You have to fight
for love and you have to be open to it. Which is not
what you naturally do, because you think that you deserve
to be loved and that someone else should struggle for
you!"
The ego, he says, is the enemy of love. And having been
a rock-star and a major celebrity, he has experienced
the loneliness of egotism.
"You say to yourself "I am so difficult! I
am so seductive, so attractive!' You go to a party and
if someone approaches you, you pretend that you are
not interested. During a party, ten or twelve people
approach and you play being the king or the queen of
the night and then you go back to your apartment alone
and miserable. Because you know that you lost several
opportunities for the sake of a stupid role that you
decided to play."
There is someone waiting for everybody, he says. Everybody?
" I am convinced of it. I never saw a person who
decided to find her or his love, who didn't find them.
But you must be humble and fight for love. You must
be open to people and realise that the ego is not important!"
Could there be more than one love?
"Of course. I am on my fourth marriage! But people
don't dare to fall in love more than once, in their
lives. When they think they have found the right person,
they stop and stay with that person."
The problem with most people, he says, is that they
are too scared to follow their dreams. And so they settle
for less, and stay miserable. This, he himself will
never do. He is a warrior, who must be fully engaged
with life.
"Most people feel guilty, or they feel cheated
by life or they feel that they don't deserve, or they
feel themselves to be victims. But it is a matter of
attitude. I have been through very difficult times.
I never chose to be a victim. It is good for us to be
tested, otherwise we lose our skill. If you don't have
to fight, you forget how to fight.'
Does God sit up there and say Okay, Paulo, it's time
for you to have another test? He laughs.
"No. But I believe in God as a living energy of
love. And love is always testing us. Some of the tests
happen just to see if you are capable of withstanding
the punch and not falling down!"
Whatever I might think about his books, he says, he
does not have all the answers. He is not the alchemist,
even though he is the shepherd boy and he is every other
character that inhabits his works. So I must find my
own answers, he is not the guru, even if people think
he is. To prove it, he offers me a cigarette. I refuse
it, horrified.
'Ha!" he laughs. "You don't want to smoke
a cigarette? You think you are going to die, if you
do?" I don't think I will die, I say. But I don't
think smoking is good for you. And I am reminded of
a new book by a famous Brazilian philosopher, in which
the writer tells a fairytale about a prostitute. And
in the book, the heroine says of herself 'Although she
was capable of writing very wise thoughts, she was quite
incapable of following her own advice." Does this
happen to Paulo?
'Not at all!' he says, enigmatically. And off he goes
to enlighten a few more millions with his wisdom.
'Eleven Minutes" is published by Harper Collins,
16.60 euros.
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